Our long time member, Sky Schultz has updated his presentation, of which, we had a taste on February 19, 2015. Sky told us that he has added about 160 new slides. Of course, we did not begin to see all those slides but we saw a fair number with many deep quotes 'dropping on us from the Sky.'
His title: "Finding God Through Nature, Science, and Mystical Poetry
A Fiasco Production *Subsidiary of Fax Pas Ink.
and the International Society of Mystic Poetry (IMPS).
Sky would like this talk to portray a different kind of knowing, beyond the mind and beyond death.
Time:
Time is a very persistent illusion (Einstein)
Thoreau said in Walden "time is the stream I go a-fishin' in"
Oscar Wilde "Only the shallow know themselves"
This is a conspiracy -- to breath together.
Sky says only a professional fool would attempt effing the ineffable.
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is trying to get at the roots" Henry David Thoreau
There were many many more quotations, but I couldn't get them all. Sky did close after perhaps 35 minutes so that we could catch our breath and offer our own comments and views. The following are some of those comments.
I commented that throughout my life I have always gone to books to try to learn something new. That happened in my schooling, in medical school, and even in my leisure attempts to learn art. But all that has meant to me is that I have a house full of books. But I am not sure I have learned what is most important. All this information made me too full. But I would need to get empty to get something better.
Eric W. commented that in a material world, this type of information gathering works. But not so well in the spiritual world. Edison said "We don't know a millionth of one percent about anything." But this is being OK without knowing.
Kathy says she is often amazed about so many of the spiritual writings of people like Pema Chodran, Tera Brach Phd, and Gopi Krishna and his Kundalini Meditation. Many of these writings show a connection between religions and religious leaders. Many of the thoughts are identical.
Sky interposed that Eckhart Tolle said "The test is if it resonates with me." In other words what is true for me.
Sky had asked for a critique on this talk. Meridith commented that he thought that Sky was doing a program of reflection with all of his quotes, etc. But the program seemed hidden in the absolute number of reflections. Instead, this could be a series of talks or classes. One could be 'Reflections on Time', a second could be 'Reflections on Shallwoness', and another 'On Unknowing, etc.
Eric W: Mel Brooks said "Humor is best defense against the universe,"
Groucho Marx said: "These are my principles. If you don't like them, I've got others."
It might be said that the Hindu God invented humanity because he likes hearing stories.
Gary said the more we read about what is known, the more we realize we don't know. (for example quantum physics.) Humor also helps here. Sometime what we know is based on what we can't know.
Mark said that there is an ego, a self if you will. Most of us think it is a bad thing and we need to transcend the self. But remember that love is a special form of knowing. Sky agreed that Love is important. Love can cause suffering. But love is also the nature of empathy. Love leads to compassion which actually means "suffering with." Gary commented that what we know leads to what we can't know. This leads us to empathy. Again "We are all bozos on this bus," as Gary likes to summarize our status in this world. Liz felt that in the case of love, you do need some boundaries; otherwise, the suffering will set you up.
The author hopes that some of these comments are useful. This was a difficult program to summarize as it covered so wide an area with all of the wonderfully deep quotations.
Wednesday, April 29, 2015
April 16, 2015: Default mode network and other networks -- continued
The was the second week of discussion about the default mode network versus the task positive network and a few other of the 40 plus networks of brain function that we now know about. The following is a paraphrase of a handout that Paul distributed this date to clarify some of the vast information that has been discovered about these brain networks.
There is a very nice partial chapter describing what we know about these networks in a very complete tome, by Dan Levitin, entitled The Organized Mind.
Last week we learned the definition and characteristics of the default mode network, which is a connections of several vary important parts of the brain that cycles in and out on an average of 5 to 100 seconds, with an average cycle length of 20 seconds. The network that is basically our "day dreaming" network takes over with these kind of cycles whether we want it to or not. However there are ways to keep it in abeyance. One such way is to activate the task positive network which is the network that takes effect when we are consciously trying to either complete a task or also when we are doing concentrative meditation.
The various parts of the task positive network are the dorsal attention pathway and the ventral attention pathway. The dorsal attention pathway (egocentric) is over the top of the brain and bilateral in a top down fashion. The ventral attention pathway (allocentric) is located primarily underneath the brain, and tending to end up mostly in the right hemisphere (bottom up). this pathway is an alerting pathway.
James Austin says that these areas anti-correlate, but other authors don't mention this.)
In general, the ventral attention pathway is considered "bottom up", and is the first network recruited by new alerting situations, usually initiated by the salience network. Let's examine what the salience network is. The salience network is underneath the frontal lobe, and involves the right insula. It is the network that gets activated upon a significant event in the environment. . It is therefore somewhat of a traffic cop. It usually anti-correlates with the default mode network. According to Wikipedia, the salience of an item whether it is an object, a person, a light, etc, is the state or quality by which it stands out relative to its neighbors. Saliency detection is considered to be a key attentional mechanism that facilitates learning and survival by enabling organism to focus their limited perceptual and cognitive resources on the most pertinent subset of the available sensory data.
"Saliency typically arises from contrasts between items and their neighborhood, such as a red dot surrounded by white dots, a flickering message indicator of an answering machine, or a loud noise in an otherwise quiet environment. Saliency detection is often studied in the context of the visual system, but similar mechanisms operate in other sensory systems. What is salient can be influenced by training: for example, for human subjects particular letters can become salient by training."
Wikipedia article goes on the state that "when attention deployment is driven by salient stimuli, it is considered to be bottom-up, memory-free and reactive. Attention can be top-down, memory-dependent, or anticipatory mechanism, such as when looking ahead of moving objects or sideways before crossing streets. Humans and other animals have difficulty paying attention to more than one item simultaneously, so they are faced with the challenge of continuously integrating and prioritizing different bottom-up and top-down influences. "
Paul goes on in his summary handout, the dorsal attention pathway is more top down and is related to resolving conflict, initiating action. It basically selects what to pay attention to.
Another network located mostly in the frontal lobe is the executive control network. At rest this network anti-correlates with the default mode network. When awareness of daydreaming occurs, this network starts to correlate with the default mode network. The executive control network is the area where decisions are often made.
As was commented above, one way to take more control of the default mode network is to meditate. The concentration of meditation engages the task positive network. However, there are two different types of meditation which contrast and seem to strengthen either the default mode network or the task positive network. Utilizing these contrasting forms of meditation would seem to strengthen one or the other of these networks thus enhancing a balance between the two. Here is a contrast between these two types of meditation.
Receptive versus concentrative meditation.
Receptive Concentrative
more effortless and unfocused effortful, sustained
universal bare awareness deliberate one-pointed attention
Global monitoring and bottom-up voluntary, top-down processing
other referential self referential
"open pasture" "cow squeezing"
more effect on default mode network more effect on task positive network
examples: examples:
meditation on thought body scan
sky gazing lovingkindness meditation
vipassana samatha
increase strength of connections increase strength of connections
in default mode (and ? VAN) in task positive network
There is a very nice partial chapter describing what we know about these networks in a very complete tome, by Dan Levitin, entitled The Organized Mind.
Last week we learned the definition and characteristics of the default mode network, which is a connections of several vary important parts of the brain that cycles in and out on an average of 5 to 100 seconds, with an average cycle length of 20 seconds. The network that is basically our "day dreaming" network takes over with these kind of cycles whether we want it to or not. However there are ways to keep it in abeyance. One such way is to activate the task positive network which is the network that takes effect when we are consciously trying to either complete a task or also when we are doing concentrative meditation.
The various parts of the task positive network are the dorsal attention pathway and the ventral attention pathway. The dorsal attention pathway (egocentric) is over the top of the brain and bilateral in a top down fashion. The ventral attention pathway (allocentric) is located primarily underneath the brain, and tending to end up mostly in the right hemisphere (bottom up). this pathway is an alerting pathway.
James Austin says that these areas anti-correlate, but other authors don't mention this.)
In general, the ventral attention pathway is considered "bottom up", and is the first network recruited by new alerting situations, usually initiated by the salience network. Let's examine what the salience network is. The salience network is underneath the frontal lobe, and involves the right insula. It is the network that gets activated upon a significant event in the environment. . It is therefore somewhat of a traffic cop. It usually anti-correlates with the default mode network. According to Wikipedia, the salience of an item whether it is an object, a person, a light, etc, is the state or quality by which it stands out relative to its neighbors. Saliency detection is considered to be a key attentional mechanism that facilitates learning and survival by enabling organism to focus their limited perceptual and cognitive resources on the most pertinent subset of the available sensory data.
"Saliency typically arises from contrasts between items and their neighborhood, such as a red dot surrounded by white dots, a flickering message indicator of an answering machine, or a loud noise in an otherwise quiet environment. Saliency detection is often studied in the context of the visual system, but similar mechanisms operate in other sensory systems. What is salient can be influenced by training: for example, for human subjects particular letters can become salient by training."
Wikipedia article goes on the state that "when attention deployment is driven by salient stimuli, it is considered to be bottom-up, memory-free and reactive. Attention can be top-down, memory-dependent, or anticipatory mechanism, such as when looking ahead of moving objects or sideways before crossing streets. Humans and other animals have difficulty paying attention to more than one item simultaneously, so they are faced with the challenge of continuously integrating and prioritizing different bottom-up and top-down influences. "
Paul goes on in his summary handout, the dorsal attention pathway is more top down and is related to resolving conflict, initiating action. It basically selects what to pay attention to.
Another network located mostly in the frontal lobe is the executive control network. At rest this network anti-correlates with the default mode network. When awareness of daydreaming occurs, this network starts to correlate with the default mode network. The executive control network is the area where decisions are often made.
As was commented above, one way to take more control of the default mode network is to meditate. The concentration of meditation engages the task positive network. However, there are two different types of meditation which contrast and seem to strengthen either the default mode network or the task positive network. Utilizing these contrasting forms of meditation would seem to strengthen one or the other of these networks thus enhancing a balance between the two. Here is a contrast between these two types of meditation.
Receptive versus concentrative meditation.
Receptive Concentrative
more effortless and unfocused effortful, sustained
universal bare awareness deliberate one-pointed attention
Global monitoring and bottom-up voluntary, top-down processing
other referential self referential
"open pasture" "cow squeezing"
more effect on default mode network more effect on task positive network
examples: examples:
meditation on thought body scan
sky gazing lovingkindness meditation
vipassana samatha
increase strength of connections increase strength of connections
in default mode (and ? VAN) in task positive network
Sunday, April 12, 2015
April 9, 2015: Default Mode Network and Meditation
Paul presented information about the default mode network and the task positive network. He read or scanned over 100 scientific articles about these networks and found one article that he felt describes them quite well. We took turns reading this article. This article is a very good one and describes the locations of and the differences between these two networks and how they work. The article also considers how these two networks contribute to anxiety, depression, meditation and mindfulness. The natural cycling of these two networks affects our ability to meditate with success. This cycling between the DMN and the TPN occurs every 5 to 100 seconds. The average length of the cycle is 20 seconds. During meditation, our brain cycles at this frequency. This is the source of what we often call our "monkey mind."
Here is the location of the article: http://www.mindfulnessmd.com/2014/07/08/neuroscience-of-mindfulness-default-mode-net
Paul also completed reading the book "The Organized Mind" by Daniel J. Levitin. The location of the Matthew Williams article:
http://www.mindfulnessmd.com/2014/06/21/the-neuroscience-of-mindfulness-anxiety/
The description of meditation fits an older description of 2 types of meditation. The first is called the 'wondering cow' meditation. In this case the cow is wondering in an open pasture totally free to do anything. This type of meditation is also called open awareness meditation which would strengthen the DMN. The second type of meditation is called "squeezing the cow" meditation. for this meditation you engage the TPN for meditation.
In mental health, both networks are strong and they are more separated. That is they involve more discrete areas of the brain when active and do not overlap.
If you suddenly feel the urge to get up and do something, walk around, anything, that is your TPN cycling into effect. It wants you to get up and move around. For true mental health, the goal is to have both networks working well. These active networks do not have equal strength in every person.
The author of this article somewhat devalues information about the precuneus area of the brain, but Paul has read that biographical memory becomes active in this area of the brain whereas the hippo campus is used for recent memories. The author also makes the DMN the villain but we know that the DMN is involved in creativity so it is not all bad. A strong DMN is also good for planning, and for insights. In anxiety and depression, the prefrontal cortex is left out. The DMN goes on by itself in anxiety and depression. In depression if you can reactivate your TPN, it helps. That's why exercise, or engaging in social interaction, it helps. In ADHD, the DMN is weak.
It appears that these two networks do not mature and become truly separate in the brain until after myelination has been completed which happens at about age 25. This is why we see some of the emotional problems that teenagers have. As people mature, the separation of these two networks occurs and they each become stronger.
There was not a lot of time for discussion, so we have elected to carry on the discussion of these two networks and perhaps even some of the other 40 odd brain networks that are now known to exist.
A Further Announcement:
Lori Caterini had distributed postcards last week announcing her Graduate Art Therapy Exhibition entitled "Unearth" at Mount Mary University the week of April 13-19 at the Marian Art Gallery, Monday-Friday, ( 9 am - 7 pm ), Saturday and Sunday (1 - 4 pm). On Saturday, April 18, 2015 from 4-6 pm there will be performance artworks by Tami DeLisle, Ann Lee, Yasmin tucker, and Heather Leigh, performed in the Parkway Cafe, Lower Level, of Caroline Hall. The Exhibition Reception is Saturday, April 18, from 6 - 9 pm. Lori reminds us that to see some of the natural effects such as moss at its freshest, one should probably visit on the weekend of April 17- 19. Mount Mary is located 2900 North Menomenee River Parkway, Milwaukee, WI 53222
Wednesday, April 8, 2015
April 2, 2015: Bake Off
Today was an ordinary Bake Off in which attendees brought spiritual "ingredients" which are presented to the group, other "ingredients" are added, "stirred" that is contemplated, and then "baked" to see what new and wonderful "nourishment" our group can come up with.
Initially our admired Dr. P. Norton sat with his guitar on his lap. This was irresistible and he went first with his "ingredient", a lyric he wrote himself and accompanied on his guitar to the tune of Space Cowboy. The words are quite intricate as is the guitar accompaniment, such that there were requests to include the lyrics here in the blog.
Heidi brought several New York Times articles to consider and passed them around. Here is the first one: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/01/style/bringing-a-daughter-back-from-the-brink-with-poems.html?_r=0
In this case a daughter rebelled by refusing to wear shoes, even going to school barefoot. She eventually stopped that behavior but moved on into more worrisome depression and other emotional concerns. The mother started putting poems in her shoes as a reminder of a way to end behavior that is harmful to self. She enabled her daughter to make better emotional choices through her caretaking. Our discussion on this matter included some of the following ides: Maybe we need to go barefoot with our feet on the bare ground to get in touch with Gaia, Mother Earth.
Heidi brought another NY Times article about texting and using all the abbreviations, emoticons, dashes and other punctuation marks. It appears often that the words say less than all of the symbols around them.
Sky made the comment that Zen is doing one thing at a time. This simple comment led into quite a discussion about multi tasking. I commented that really the brain is not capable of doing more than one thing at a time. What the modern world calls multi tasking is really just frequent switching between doing one thing, and then to doing another thing. that constant changing cost brain energy, increases stress, and is really inefficient. We indeed may be suffering interpersonally from our current society. As an example, kids certainly are having problems attending and this may be contributed to by the current ubiquitous presence of texting constantly while supposed to be trying to do something else.
Several attendees agreed that mindfulness helps overcome the need to tendency to want to multitask.
Paul viewed the current almost addiction to multitasking in a different way. He postulates that we really engage in multitasking because it does cause stress, it increases adrenaline, and we are indeed addicted to that buzz. Therefore, when we stop multitasking we get the same relief that we get after watching a horror film, or a packer game. It is relief when it is over. But we want that buzz again and so we again engage in that multitasking behavior again and again.
Sky quoted Attar: "Between you and me, God, there is only me. Get rid of me."
At the end of the meeting, there was a brief discussion of another New York Times article which was quite deep and due to the hour in our discussion, was treated quickly and somewhat glossed over. It had to do with something called the incomplete dyad, where in some things that society criticizes as immoral, there is no harm and no victim. In many of those cases, we tend to slot in a victim because we need the wrong to be associated with a wronged person. It is our perceptions that then create and magnify the harm. I would like to just give you the reference here in case you would like to read further on this topic by reading this article that was cited. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/01/opinions/sunday/the-myth-of-the-harmless-wrong.html?_r=0
The New Physics
(to the tune "Space Cowboy.")
I told you 'bout living in alternative states
And you know I am a prankster of sorts
Let me tell you friends that I found a new way
And it's not electromagnetic force
It's the same old cosmos with a new set of rules
About energy, space time, and mass.
So don't tell me what you knew back in 2002
'cause I'll know you're talking out of your nose.
I'm a Higgs boson; bet you weren't ready for that
I'm a Higgs boson; and I turn stuff into matt, matt, matter.
Up, down, top, bottom, strange, charm, six little quarks
Held together by some cosmological spit
I keep my eyes on the screen as they turn envy green
And I don't by that Newtonian stuff
All you back bench schemers, post doc dreamers
Think you have something new to say.
But I'm sitting in the Alps with the Hadron Collider,
So I guess I will be ruling the day.
I'm a Higgs boson; bet you weren't ready for that
I'm a Higgs boson; and I turn stuff into matt, matt, matter.
Initially our admired Dr. P. Norton sat with his guitar on his lap. This was irresistible and he went first with his "ingredient", a lyric he wrote himself and accompanied on his guitar to the tune of Space Cowboy. The words are quite intricate as is the guitar accompaniment, such that there were requests to include the lyrics here in the blog.
Heidi brought several New York Times articles to consider and passed them around. Here is the first one: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/01/style/bringing-a-daughter-back-from-the-brink-with-poems.html?_r=0
In this case a daughter rebelled by refusing to wear shoes, even going to school barefoot. She eventually stopped that behavior but moved on into more worrisome depression and other emotional concerns. The mother started putting poems in her shoes as a reminder of a way to end behavior that is harmful to self. She enabled her daughter to make better emotional choices through her caretaking. Our discussion on this matter included some of the following ides: Maybe we need to go barefoot with our feet on the bare ground to get in touch with Gaia, Mother Earth.
Heidi brought another NY Times article about texting and using all the abbreviations, emoticons, dashes and other punctuation marks. It appears often that the words say less than all of the symbols around them.
Sky made the comment that Zen is doing one thing at a time. This simple comment led into quite a discussion about multi tasking. I commented that really the brain is not capable of doing more than one thing at a time. What the modern world calls multi tasking is really just frequent switching between doing one thing, and then to doing another thing. that constant changing cost brain energy, increases stress, and is really inefficient. We indeed may be suffering interpersonally from our current society. As an example, kids certainly are having problems attending and this may be contributed to by the current ubiquitous presence of texting constantly while supposed to be trying to do something else.
Several attendees agreed that mindfulness helps overcome the need to tendency to want to multitask.
Paul viewed the current almost addiction to multitasking in a different way. He postulates that we really engage in multitasking because it does cause stress, it increases adrenaline, and we are indeed addicted to that buzz. Therefore, when we stop multitasking we get the same relief that we get after watching a horror film, or a packer game. It is relief when it is over. But we want that buzz again and so we again engage in that multitasking behavior again and again.
Sky quoted Attar: "Between you and me, God, there is only me. Get rid of me."
At the end of the meeting, there was a brief discussion of another New York Times article which was quite deep and due to the hour in our discussion, was treated quickly and somewhat glossed over. It had to do with something called the incomplete dyad, where in some things that society criticizes as immoral, there is no harm and no victim. In many of those cases, we tend to slot in a victim because we need the wrong to be associated with a wronged person. It is our perceptions that then create and magnify the harm. I would like to just give you the reference here in case you would like to read further on this topic by reading this article that was cited. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/01/opinions/sunday/the-myth-of-the-harmless-wrong.html?_r=0
The New Physics
(to the tune "Space Cowboy.")
I told you 'bout living in alternative states
And you know I am a prankster of sorts
Let me tell you friends that I found a new way
And it's not electromagnetic force
It's the same old cosmos with a new set of rules
About energy, space time, and mass.
So don't tell me what you knew back in 2002
'cause I'll know you're talking out of your nose.
I'm a Higgs boson; bet you weren't ready for that
I'm a Higgs boson; and I turn stuff into matt, matt, matter.
Up, down, top, bottom, strange, charm, six little quarks
Held together by some cosmological spit
I keep my eyes on the screen as they turn envy green
And I don't by that Newtonian stuff
All you back bench schemers, post doc dreamers
Think you have something new to say.
But I'm sitting in the Alps with the Hadron Collider,
So I guess I will be ruling the day.
I'm a Higgs boson; bet you weren't ready for that
I'm a Higgs boson; and I turn stuff into matt, matt, matter.
March 26, 2015: A dialogue between Thurman and Batchelor.
This week, Ann Selzer, your Consensap, led the discussion of an article from "The Tricycle", in which Robert Thurman and Stephen Batchelor debate whether true Buddhist belief requires a belief in rebirth. I have summarized that dialogue as follows. The group has this article ahead of time to read and contemplate.
Here is the url of that article: http://www.tricycle.com/
Here is the url of that article: http://www.tricycle.com/
Rebirth
There is a debate between traditional Eastern Buddhism
and the Western iteration of Buddhism and one of the important disagreements
between these two groups is what the concept of rebirth means to Buddhism. This
brief dialogue is between Stephen Batchelor who lives in England and is the
Director of Studies at the Sharpham College for Buddhist Studies and
Contemporary Inquiry. Robert Thurman is the Jey Tsong Khapa Professor of Indo-Tibetan
Studies at Columbia University and a cofounder of the Tibet House in New York
City. Both have done considerable work in translating some of the traditional
standards of Buddhist literature in addition to original writing about Buddhist
beliefs.
Robert Thurman is the more traditional of these two
gentlemen. Although he feels that anyone can be a Buddhist no matter what they
believe, he strongly feels that the concept of rebirth is a very important one
in Buddhist thought. He feels that the traditional Buddhist must include a
responsibility for past and future lives. He feels that without the concept of
good and bad karma and the resultant good and bad rebirth levels, people would
not be motivated to do good works. He believes strongly that the Buddha could
relate other of his own lives, and taught the existence of rebirth. He feels
that there is more than ample evidence in the stories of children who have
remembered their former lives. And he feels that this concept is necessary for
the ongoing study and advancement of Buddhism and for the advancement of
Buddhist practitioners as well as for spiritual evolution in general.
Stephen Batchelor portrays more of the Western view
which is sometimes regarded as a “watered down” view. He says that he really “doesn’t know” if there
is rebirth or not. He admits that some of the evidence is compelling but
postulates that even if some individual personalities are indeed reborn, it
probably doesn’t happen to everyone. And he believes that this idea that it
would happen to everyone is not necessary for the advancement of Buddhist
beliefs. He feels that one could even serve as a bodhisattva by dedicating even
our one life to saving all beings through leadership and teaching by the one
personality who then dies. He also feels that part of the idea of rebirth may
just be a function of its wide distribution among traditional religions at the
time of Buddha. He thinks that there
probably is something after bodily death but he really “doesn’t know”. And this is not
a “don’t care” attitude but simply an “I don’t know” as in the agnostic “I
don’t know.” He agrees that there may be
something after death of the body that none of us today with all of our science
can even conceive or dream up. He agrees
that the idea of rebirth is very attractive to the human spirit and he would
love to buy rebirth totally. But he can’t
Whereas Thurman believes that the threat of bad karma
leading to a lower rebirth determines the Buddhist excelling at helping others.
Batchelor has asked himself if that was the case for him, and he feels that the
concept of rebirth was never a driving force in his own behavior. He says that
even if we could scientifically prove the existence of rebirth as a process,
there would still not be evidence of karmic continuity and it would not prove
rebirth as consequence of former presence or absence of moral acts.
Again in terms of the Buddha, Batchelor seems to place
the Buddha in his time period of history along with its limitations of cultural
boundaries, from which he carries over ideas that Buddha was not a Superman.
However Thurman truly believes the Buddhist scriptures and regards the words of
Buddha about rebirth and about karma as absolute truths handed down over a
remarkable 2500 years – those years of study providing support for his
traditional view of rebirth. In fact he views even a kernel of Western science
and its materialistic view of consciousness and the idea that “Boom, dead,
finished.” -- he views this as
nihilistic toward spiritual progression. It provides a weird kind of
freedom and a sense of helplessness. “There is nothing you can do because you
don’t think that this piece of training, this piece of reasoning will really
accomplish any transformation… The idea
that you will become nothing at death, which subliminally makes you feel like nothing even now, is the
major obstacle to people’s emotional life, their sense of connectedness to
nature, to other people and to the environment.
In answer, Batchelor says that he certainly agrees
that people need to have a world view that supplies a deeper sense of connectedness
with the environment, with other people and with society. But he feels that a
believer can account for spiritual transformation, responsibility and causality
just fine without having to believe in personal continuity through multiple
lives.
Much of the third page is devoted to a debate about
the bodhisattva vow and what it means in the presence or absence of rebirth and
multiple lifetimes to effect the vow. Thurman’s vow would be quite literal.
Batchelor’s vow is symbolic.
Batchelor believes that much of religious teachings
come out of a desire for stories of consolation. We do need theories that are a
first step toward an actual practice that can begin to change our sense of who
we are in the world. Though not entirely happy with this, Thurman got Batchelor
to admit that he posits a “virtual” continuity and connectedness, if not a
literal former and future life one.
Batchelor: I would try to behave as if there were infinite lifetimes in
which I would be committed to saving beings. Thurman: Then in case it turns out
that you have to spend infinite lives here, you’ll be all set!
I had particularly thought that we might discuss several of the comments that appeared after this article. I particularly liked comments 3, 6-8, 11, 13 and its sub comments, and the sub comment of 14, the last one. However, as is usual in our group the discussion went in its own direction.
Gary commented that he feels reincarnation is very duality driven. In his preferred world view of monism, reincarnation cannot exist. The duality is that there is right and wrong, one has to achieve enlightenment to join the dharma, and karma assumes that the victim has done wrong in order to suffer. All of these monism would not have a place for.
Paul wonders why in this article when Thurman set up a ball on a tee for Batchelor to hit it out of the park, Batchelor turned it down. He caved into Thurman several times. Regarding absolute truth, there is non in Buddhism. The goal is to achieve Nirvana, and then there is no self. Therefore the goal is for there to be no self to exist, which is the opposite of the identity of the self going forward. Buddha said "I teach suffering and the need to relieve it." What may happen in a future life does not inform Paul's behavior at all. And mostly the feeling is that we humans just do not know. We just do not know what happens after death and in the universe after death.
Meridith: Buddha often said, "This I have not specified." We all come with a story we are comfortable with. Every religion has finger shaking going on. And sometimes we do need that. "I (Meridith) think that when it comes to my death, if I have lived a good life, I will be all set. And if there's no afterlife, well then I have lived a good life."
Kathy wanted to get in a last statement. Due to her experiences which she has told us about, she strongly believes in reincarnation. She knows the soul is incarnated. It is one part of the evolution of the soul. Last word!
I had particularly thought that we might discuss several of the comments that appeared after this article. I particularly liked comments 3, 6-8, 11, 13 and its sub comments, and the sub comment of 14, the last one. However, as is usual in our group the discussion went in its own direction.
Gary commented that he feels reincarnation is very duality driven. In his preferred world view of monism, reincarnation cannot exist. The duality is that there is right and wrong, one has to achieve enlightenment to join the dharma, and karma assumes that the victim has done wrong in order to suffer. All of these monism would not have a place for.
Paul wonders why in this article when Thurman set up a ball on a tee for Batchelor to hit it out of the park, Batchelor turned it down. He caved into Thurman several times. Regarding absolute truth, there is non in Buddhism. The goal is to achieve Nirvana, and then there is no self. Therefore the goal is for there to be no self to exist, which is the opposite of the identity of the self going forward. Buddha said "I teach suffering and the need to relieve it." What may happen in a future life does not inform Paul's behavior at all. And mostly the feeling is that we humans just do not know. We just do not know what happens after death and in the universe after death.
Meridith: Buddha often said, "This I have not specified." We all come with a story we are comfortable with. Every religion has finger shaking going on. And sometimes we do need that. "I (Meridith) think that when it comes to my death, if I have lived a good life, I will be all set. And if there's no afterlife, well then I have lived a good life."
Kathy wanted to get in a last statement. Due to her experiences which she has told us about, she strongly believes in reincarnation. She knows the soul is incarnated. It is one part of the evolution of the soul. Last word!
March 19, 2015: Neutral Monism continued
This is week number 2 on Neutral Monism. During this session, Gary took a couple of steps back and reviewed and then more concisely represented some of his ideas on the classification of types of consciousness and world view, by Chalmers -- neutral monism, Type F. Again as indicated last week, it is difficult to summarize many of these complex ideas that Gary has presented to us. I have Gary's notes from his book and I have read through them. As I read the notes and attempt to summarize for this blog, I have ;moments of lucidity alternating with complete bafflement. I must apologize that these notes may not make anything more clear. However, during the next several paragraphs I would like to reproduce some of my notes taken during Gary's recapitulation and summary of his most recent writings on neutral monism, type F.
From my notes, as your timekeeper and facilitator:
Gary would like to summarize by saying that he is now attracted to a viewpoint in which everything is information. The information is local here in the meeting room, but 99% of the information is non local. In the case of Schrodinger theories, as an example, observation grounds or collapses the wave form of information, so that in the example photons go to our eyes and our brain interprets what we then see with those photons. This is indeed type F monism. If we look at a pot, the information of that pot is there whether I look at it or not, but when I look at it, it collapses. I am using my thoughts to consider things which are both local and nonlocal. For each observer, it is different. I have my own information space contributed to by my experience.
What is and what our brain experiences equals subjectivity. As we focus on consciousness as a singularity, and suddenly there is a collapse that wasn't there before. Consciousness produces reality by making the choice and collapsing. Big C Consciousness somehow is grounded and that leads me to make certain choices. Experience is dynamic; it is not pixelated; it is smooth.
Regarding theories of consciousness: Gary condemned the materialistic theories. Scientists still are materialistic.In such theories, many spiritual ideas have been condensed to organic. And the scientific method also with its measurement, proving by experiment etc leads to a materialistic view. The battle between the materialistic view and a spiritual view has been going on for 400 years. But Gary feels it is time for our societal views to move on. Though science has provided wonderful benefits for we humans and for nature in general, it now seems to provide a very limited view and it does not allow for all the knowledge that we have today. Some people find comfort in a reductionist theory. Gary does not so he's writing a book which we have the unique honor of hearing and reading as he writes it and he hopes that his ideas provide a more up to date and better understood view of it all.
The physical is the grounded or collapsed form of information. The question is: does matter lead to consciousness, or does consciousness lead to matter (collapsed). That is a phenomenal theory. Does something cause the matter to collapse or vice versa. These are the prophenomenal theories.
But we are more than just physical. We have experience. Russell, Whitehead, James -- all started looking at matter at the beginning of the quantum physics era. In Newtonian physics, if you know where an atom is, it will always be there forever. But Russell proposed information spaces. They could be 2 bit -- an either/or status, on or off. They could be multiple complexes of 2 bit information. They could be multiple levels of complexity. They can be built with continuous information which becomes non local. In other words there are an infinite number of states. There are 2 dimension, 3 dimension, multi dimensions to an infinity of information spaces.
Gary has sought to find a description of the perception of our world. As a description, he likes the comment: "We are all bozos on this bus." He has found a narrative that fits his view of the world. Our understanding of the physical world is causal. Phenomenal quality is non local. Gary says: "My understanding of a 'red ball' has to be with an information space in my brain and is realized phenomenally. Chalmers called this a bridge between the physical and the phenomenal." On a local level, perception is a pattern of energy in the brain, a pattern of neurons firing, etc. These local spaces add up to nonlocal relationships and ultimately add up to attunement between people. As I process the physical in my brain it ultimately becomes phenomenal. In type F monism, consciousness and information are together. They exist together. Now it gets metaphysical. It is like two being one. They are one outside of space time. They appear as two in space time.
The use of the term "proto-phenomenal information/Consciousness seems to Gary to be impersonal, laborious and even smacking a little of a duality. And it is cumbersome. So Gary proposes a change to the phrase "the Kingdom of heaven."
"We are used to this term historically in the Judeo-Christian tradition. The use of this phrase suggests a continuum between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God with the waking consciousness of man. The seemingly finite consciousness of man is connected with the infinite Consciousness of nonlocal space. Therefore, man's consciousness is also infinite. This idea is consistent with NDE's and OBEs which are otherwise impossible to characterize. This idea is also most consistent with other phenomena like hypnosis and the placebo effect, whereby expectations determine outcomes, as well as telepathy, when one mind seems to be in contact with another. Further, this is the essence of neutral monism, protophenomenal information/Consciousness, and, therefore, is appropriately consistent with quantum concerns regarding the observer. "
Quoting from Gary's notes: "In summary, I hope to have developed to this point a curiosity and an understanding of the quantum nature of the universe, a result of all the potential quantum superpositions, and existing as a manifestation of the information of nonlocal space, including the phenomenality of consciousness. I believe this phenomenality is ultimately the Consciousness, the deeper reality and cause. It continues to inform the universe. To it, we and all conscious life add our own experience as a significant element of the expansion of that infinite Consciousness.
"Further, I find the metaphor of "the Kingdom of Heaven" aptly captures and unifies the complexity and spirit of the superficially diverse phenomena, including Consciousness, nonlocal wave functions of information, and neutral monism. It is 'a deeply integrated and elegant view.' "
From my notes, as your timekeeper and facilitator:
Gary would like to summarize by saying that he is now attracted to a viewpoint in which everything is information. The information is local here in the meeting room, but 99% of the information is non local. In the case of Schrodinger theories, as an example, observation grounds or collapses the wave form of information, so that in the example photons go to our eyes and our brain interprets what we then see with those photons. This is indeed type F monism. If we look at a pot, the information of that pot is there whether I look at it or not, but when I look at it, it collapses. I am using my thoughts to consider things which are both local and nonlocal. For each observer, it is different. I have my own information space contributed to by my experience.
What is and what our brain experiences equals subjectivity. As we focus on consciousness as a singularity, and suddenly there is a collapse that wasn't there before. Consciousness produces reality by making the choice and collapsing. Big C Consciousness somehow is grounded and that leads me to make certain choices. Experience is dynamic; it is not pixelated; it is smooth.
Regarding theories of consciousness: Gary condemned the materialistic theories. Scientists still are materialistic.In such theories, many spiritual ideas have been condensed to organic. And the scientific method also with its measurement, proving by experiment etc leads to a materialistic view. The battle between the materialistic view and a spiritual view has been going on for 400 years. But Gary feels it is time for our societal views to move on. Though science has provided wonderful benefits for we humans and for nature in general, it now seems to provide a very limited view and it does not allow for all the knowledge that we have today. Some people find comfort in a reductionist theory. Gary does not so he's writing a book which we have the unique honor of hearing and reading as he writes it and he hopes that his ideas provide a more up to date and better understood view of it all.
The physical is the grounded or collapsed form of information. The question is: does matter lead to consciousness, or does consciousness lead to matter (collapsed). That is a phenomenal theory. Does something cause the matter to collapse or vice versa. These are the prophenomenal theories.
But we are more than just physical. We have experience. Russell, Whitehead, James -- all started looking at matter at the beginning of the quantum physics era. In Newtonian physics, if you know where an atom is, it will always be there forever. But Russell proposed information spaces. They could be 2 bit -- an either/or status, on or off. They could be multiple complexes of 2 bit information. They could be multiple levels of complexity. They can be built with continuous information which becomes non local. In other words there are an infinite number of states. There are 2 dimension, 3 dimension, multi dimensions to an infinity of information spaces.
Gary has sought to find a description of the perception of our world. As a description, he likes the comment: "We are all bozos on this bus." He has found a narrative that fits his view of the world. Our understanding of the physical world is causal. Phenomenal quality is non local. Gary says: "My understanding of a 'red ball' has to be with an information space in my brain and is realized phenomenally. Chalmers called this a bridge between the physical and the phenomenal." On a local level, perception is a pattern of energy in the brain, a pattern of neurons firing, etc. These local spaces add up to nonlocal relationships and ultimately add up to attunement between people. As I process the physical in my brain it ultimately becomes phenomenal. In type F monism, consciousness and information are together. They exist together. Now it gets metaphysical. It is like two being one. They are one outside of space time. They appear as two in space time.
The use of the term "proto-phenomenal information/Consciousness seems to Gary to be impersonal, laborious and even smacking a little of a duality. And it is cumbersome. So Gary proposes a change to the phrase "the Kingdom of heaven."
"We are used to this term historically in the Judeo-Christian tradition. The use of this phrase suggests a continuum between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God with the waking consciousness of man. The seemingly finite consciousness of man is connected with the infinite Consciousness of nonlocal space. Therefore, man's consciousness is also infinite. This idea is consistent with NDE's and OBEs which are otherwise impossible to characterize. This idea is also most consistent with other phenomena like hypnosis and the placebo effect, whereby expectations determine outcomes, as well as telepathy, when one mind seems to be in contact with another. Further, this is the essence of neutral monism, protophenomenal information/Consciousness, and, therefore, is appropriately consistent with quantum concerns regarding the observer. "
Quoting from Gary's notes: "In summary, I hope to have developed to this point a curiosity and an understanding of the quantum nature of the universe, a result of all the potential quantum superpositions, and existing as a manifestation of the information of nonlocal space, including the phenomenality of consciousness. I believe this phenomenality is ultimately the Consciousness, the deeper reality and cause. It continues to inform the universe. To it, we and all conscious life add our own experience as a significant element of the expansion of that infinite Consciousness.
"Further, I find the metaphor of "the Kingdom of Heaven" aptly captures and unifies the complexity and spirit of the superficially diverse phenomena, including Consciousness, nonlocal wave functions of information, and neutral monism. It is 'a deeply integrated and elegant view.' "
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